JON FAINE: Lindsay Tanner is the Minister for Finance in the Federal Government, in the Kevin Rudd Federal Government. We can say embattled in his own seat, in inner city Melbourne, where the Greens are hoping to knock him off at the federal election - maybe coming sooner than most people realise. Lindsay Tanner, good morning to you.
LINDSAY TANNER: Good morning, Jon.
JON FAINE: First of all, Mal Brown's comments that calling some Aboriginal players cannibals.
LINDSAY TANNER: Oh, I think that's appalling, but I agree a hundred per cent with what Andrew Demetriou had to say, Jon. I'm probably the wrong person to ask an opinion of about Mal Brown because I was a witness at the infamous Windy Hill brawl in 1974 that was - he had a very central role in instigating. So I think he's behaving, in modern times, like he behaved as a player. And I'd make the additional comment that now, I think, people perhaps might better understand why people like Michael Long and Nicky Winmar had to take the stand that they did at the time that they did, and why it's so important.
JON FAINE: It also shows though that despite all the politically correct banter that you and Andrew Demetriou and others may go on about, attitudes have not changed that much at grass roots level.
LINDSAY TANNER: Oh there's always going to be some people in our society with strange views and who are quite happy to give extreme offence and to set a really bad example to people. And this is not only about indigenous Australians, Jon. I have a lot to do with the African refugee community, with Somalis, Sudanese, Ethiopians, Eritreans, and the kind of impact that these sort of comments have on young kids from those communities shouldn't be overlooked either. It sends out a message that's really bad, and I think it's very important for other opinion leaders in our society to do everything we can to indicate it's totally unacceptable. I think it's outrageous. And, like Andrew Demetriou, I think he should apologise immediately and indicate that he's not going to make those sort of statements again.
JON FAINE: Can we turn to genuine matters of state and the non-negotiations that your government and your colleagues, and maybe even you, are taking part in with the mining industry, who say this is a sham, a fake, and you're not actually offering them anything.
LINDSAY TANNER: Well, Jon, I'm not directly involved in those negotiations, just to clear up that point. It's not part of my portfolio responsibilities. But I don't accept those suggestions. I'm not sure who is saying those kinds of things.
JON FAINE: Mitch Hooke from the Minerals Council, for one. And then there's an open letter in the paper today from Marius Kloppers of BHP and about 20 other mining executives, saying this is not going anywhere.
LINDSAY TANNER: Well I'm not in a position to comment about their views, other than to say that the government is continuing to have discussions with people in the mining industry. I think there were discussions even yesterday...
JON FAINE: But if you don't make concessions in those discussions, what's the point?
LINDSAY TANNER: Well, Jon, you've had experience of negotiations in the past, as I have, and when there is public opinion involved it's hardly unusual that players in those negotiations go out and grandstand to help push their position in negotiations. That's just part of the game. I'm not going to make any particular observations about those statements. As far as we're concerned serious discussions are continuing. We said from the outset that there are a lot of detailed issues associated with our proposals that need to be properly discussed, and we'll leave it up to the mining industry to make its own way through those discussions. And occasional grandstanding and very very strong statements have just become part of the action. We've seen the prime minister recently go through some of the over the top statements being made by the mining industry that were subsequently corrected by things like statements to the Stock Exchange.
JON FAINE: But implications within your portfolio are profound. If the mining tax - if the concessions to the mining tax end up costing future projections, you've got to find either other ways of raising the same revenue or you've got to cut your expected expenditure, or not balance the Budget. Which one's it going to be, Lindsay Tanner?
LINDSAY TANNER: Well first, I don't concede that any of those things are going to occur. And second, my responsibility is essentially about spending. I've got a wider responsibility, as does the Treasurer, with respect to the state of the Budget overall. But, clearly, one of the issues that is relevant to these negotiations is the overall impact on the Budget. For example, the question of how we treat existing mines and the way that they are, in effect, depreciated or written off for the purposes of liability for the proposed resource super profits tax is one of the things that's always been up for negotiation. And the structure of that will have some influence on the overall revenue position. There are a range of other issues...
JON FAINE: [Interrupts] Sorry, just to interrupt you, because you're hinting here that you're going to have some grandfathering clause. In other words, the mine tax will kick in for new projects, not existing projects.
LINDSAY TANNER: No, no, nothing of the kind, Jon. Just pointing out that there is a lot of detail consideration that has to occur with respect to how existing mines are taxed. There's been claims that this involves retrospective taxation if you tax a mine that's already in existence. That is complete nonsense. It's a bit like saying that if somebody built a factory 30 years ago and they're still making things in it and you change the tax arrangements now on the profits that are being made tomorrow, that that's somehow retrospective. We don't accept the notion that retrospectivity is involved in the proper way it's understood in tax law. But we do understand that there needs to be proper arrangements made for the existing mines so that people are not unfairly treated.
JON FAINE: Yesterday, in the High Court, Lindsay Tanner, there was a key decision in a battle that's been going, I think, for about five years, between the film star Paul Hogan, on the one hand, and the Australian Crime Commission and Tax Office, on the other hand. Is Paul Hogan going to have to slip another tax return on the barbie as well?
LINDSAY TANNER: Look, I've got no idea, to be honest, Jon. Obviously I follow the media about this issue, like many other people. But I don't know the fine detail of what's occurred and, in fact, I don't really understand or know the detail of the High Court decision. But I will say one thing, and that is that it is really important in our society that our tax authorities are strict in pursuing people - and I make no comment about whether or not Paul Hogan is in this category - are strict in pursuing people who seek to avoid or evade their legitimate tax obligations, because everybody who gets away with that imposes an additional burden on the rest of us. That means that a lot of people, ordinary working people who can't really avoid tax because they're paying PAYE tax - that means they suffer because they have to pay more tax or they get poorer services. So I stand absolutely full on behind the Tax Office in its efforts to pursue tax avoiders because they just hurt everybody else.
JON FAINE: How porous is the system? They've got an amnesty currently running. You've got till the end of this month to fess up if you've got some problems with the Tax Office and want to avoid prosecution. But in the time this amnesty's been running I was staggered to learn these figures. Four thousand people have come forward already through the amnesty, with more than $400 million worth of undeclared income - much of it offshore - $400 million undeclared from 4000 confessors. That's a staggering set of numbers.
LINDSAY TANNER: Look, it is a big set of numbers and it does indicate that there are always going to be problems, particularly in the internationalised world that we inhabit. It's getting harder and harder for the Tax Office to pursue these things. That's why it's really important that a serious effort is made. What I don't know is how many years that $400 million is spread over. So it could go back, some of it, to a time in the distant past. I just don't know. But that does underline the importance of having a serious tax regime. If you look at the problems in Greece, for example, one of the key issues that's in play there is people in the professional classes and higher income earners routinely don't pay the kinds of tax that they are supposed to pay. And, of course, what that means is that everybody else in the society effectively says well, if they're not paying, why should I?
JON FAINE: Yes. They become wishful(*).
LINDSAY TANNER: That's right. It's very corrosive...
JON FAINE: And it becomes a sport not to pay tax.
LINDSAY TANNER: That's right. And the end result is the whole society suffers severely. So it is really crucial for the health of our overall society, and our economy, that we get these things right. It's never going to be done perfectly - just as you'll never have zero crime. You'll never have complete compliance in the taxation system. But it is really important that we do pursue these things as strongly as we can.
JON FAINE: I'm not sure if you caught up with the comments because of the parliamentary ball - the Press Gallery ball last night - about which I'll ask you in a moment. But in the Senate yesterday Senator Steven Fielding tried to, and succeeded in, delaying - but not putting off - the bill for parental leave. And his concerns were somewhat, well, surprising, unexpected, and even, according to some, out of left field. Here's what is worrying him.
[Start of excerpt of Interview]
STEVEN FIELDING: Drug addicts and welfare cheats can go out there and get themselves pregnant and then after 20 weeks have an abortion and still pocket the government's cash.
[End of Excerpt]
JON FAINE: Senator Fielding thinks that people will get pregnant - whether they're drug addicts and the like - but just to get parental leave money - and then have a late term abortion.
LINDSAY TANNER: I think those statements are outrageous and I'm not quite sure why he made them, Jon. But I just completely repudiate them. The government clearly rejects any claims of that nature and I hope that Senator Fielding would reflect on his statements and perhaps withdraw them and apologise. It's really just absurd statements. And I think it's offensive to Australian women right across the board to suggest there are people out there who would actually deliberately get pregnant in order to have an abortion in order to gain what is, admittedly, a relatively modest benefit for those on maternity leave. I think that's grossly offensive.
JON FAINE: We've invited Senator Fielding to join us on the radio this morning, and we'll see whether or not he takes up that invitation. And, finally, the Press Gallery ball last night. Did you have a good time?
LINDSAY TANNER: I had a good time, but I was saying to people, Jon, that as I've got older I've leaving earlier and earlier. About half an hour per year I drop in departure time. So I was...
JON FAINE: Were you up for sale, the way Tony Abbott, Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard were?
LINDSAY TANNER: I wasn't up for sale. But I managed to get out of there about 11.30, and Roy and HG were as brilliant as ever. They amply justified their Queen's Birthday honours in making us all laugh at ourselves and everybody else. So it was a good night.
JON FAINE: And Tony Abbott auctioning off a surfing lesson has find that the Get Up organisation have been prepared to pay 16,000 - or a bit more of $16,000 to arrange a surfing lesson with an Afghan refugee.
LINDSAY TANNER: Yes. Well I think there's a worrying precedent being set here, Jon. What you could find in the future is that the respective parties bid for each other's leaders and then try and line them up for the most humiliating possible circumstances. So I'm not sure whether we want to see this trend continue.
JON FAINE: Watch out. Thank you for your time this morning.
LINDSAY TANNER: Thanks very much.
JON FAINE: Minister for Finance and member for Melbourne, Lindsay Tanner, speaking to us from the national capital. Seven minutes to nine.
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